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Steve Ditko from The Complete Four-Page Series, 2020, published by Robin Snyder:
In the case of the Hulk, the creator (Lee/Kirby) had "erred" contradicting the requirements necessary in bringing forth a survivable product.... Some people bought the Lee Kirby Hulk, but not enough to enable Marvel to continue publishing him. The Lee/Kirby Hulk obviously lacked something the other more successful profitable Marvel characters or titles supplied... Because the first Hulk series failed over a year before, Stan did not want to do the same Lee/Kirby type feature. So there had to be a noticeable difference between the old and the new Hulk.
There were discussions between us about the second Hulk. A big part centered on what Stan wanted to discard, what we could keep and why. Important discussions centered on what new approaches for the Hulk were possible... Our new approach was to be more of an overhaul, a redesign of a previous model, the exchange of a wrong idea/or formula for an alloy product that had value for buyers. The pile of old Lee/Kirby Hulks were mined mainly for what ore/ideas should be discarded.
The military context would remain with the supporting cast of General Ross and his daughter. The aliens, monsters, outsize villains in far-out fantasies, were scrapped as junk material. The more human-type of villain, meaning the less super-powerful in contrast to the Hulk, were in. It meant scaling down the potential for dramatic visual hero/villain action... The 2nd Hulk was to appear in an ongoing serial rather than self-contained stories.
So there would be more emphasis on showing the psychological, social problems of Banner and his role as the Hulk and how it affects his relationship with others and with his life and the world. Physical action would be played down, reduced. Super villains would be too distracting... There came the usual Lee plot synopsis, my working out the story pages/panel breakdown, penciling of the art, rough script and then going over the material with Stan.
So the new 2nd Hulk by Lee/Ditko/Bell (George Roussos, inker) was an alloy, a blend of old and new...
18 comments:
It's funny, but when the Hulk was reprinted in the UK back in the '60s and again in the '70s, there was no delay between the first six Hulk stories and the TTA ones, so the difference in direction probably escaped most readers, as the distinction wasn't so noticeable. And Ditko only did eight issues before Kirby was brought back, so I wonder if Steve's version was as successful as he thought.
Eight TTA issues that is, obviously not counting the one he drew for Hulk #6.
Kid,
This leads me to the Giant-Man/Hulk story that appears in Tales to Astonish #59 (Sep. 1964).
Up until then the Hulk metamorphosis, usually drawn by Kirby in Hulk comics and the Avengers, was caused by some external factor, the sun setting or a machine. (The Ditko story in Spidey #14 does not show the change.)
We assume that the story in TTA #59 was planned BEFORE the Hulk series returns in issue #60, but with Ditko’s comments we see that the Hulk series was not planned until Ditko suggested it. So there are some seeds in the Giant-Man story that that come from Lee/Ditko version of the Hulk yet to be printed. Here, BLOOD PRESSURE, initiates the Hulkish metamorphosis an internal factor. (This, of course, meant that if Banner had cut down on salt he might never have changed!!!)
At first it was when the sun went down, then it was a gamma machine, and Rick Jones also used Gamma capsules (or was it tranquilisers?) to turn Hulkie back into Brucie Bannerooni. When Ditko took over, anger or increased blood pressure turned Banner into the Hulk, but it also worked in reverse. I forget now when it was first shown that it was Hulk relaxing that turned him back into Brucie-baby, but it was a tad inconsistent to begin with.
Looking at the full interview, it was Stan who offered Steve a choice of characters - Daredevil, Iron Man, Hulk, etc. - to revive, and Steve picked the Hulk. He didn't go to Stan with the idea to revive the strip, he was considering coming up with an entirely new one at first until Stan gave him his pick of existing ones.
2 very different interpretations and I always thought the big success of Ditko on the TTA issues was the creation of The Leader....a brilliant(pun inteded) character who defined the series for me.Every issue he turned up in seemed to improve the gravitas of the Hulk.TTA#68-74,Hulk #115-117,#123,145,146 etc.For my money TTA #68-74 is the best Hulk story ever(medication time I hear you think).The locations alone....New Mexico,USA,Italy,The Moon....First appearance of the Giant Humanoid...The Leader realising a bullet lodged in Banners brain (that no one else on earth could remove) could kill him and subsequently lasered it...The creature from another world who would fight the Hulk in the priceless museum inside the Watchers home in the blue area of the moon...The ending which at the time was brilliant.The only downside was the artwork which had great Kirby layouts but poor finished art by Bob Powell.Almost perfect.A big thank you to Ditko for creating one of the best villains of all time.Stay well Kid and Barry and keep up the great work.
"it was Hulk relaxing that turned him back into Brucie-baby" That was in the Avengers.
I don't know what it was about The Leader, Triple F, but I soon grew bored with him. I think he was overused to begin with. I don't have the issues (or the reprints of them) handy to check, but as well as Bob Powell, Micky Demeo (alias Mike Esposito) also drew over Kirby's layouts on some of those stories. 'Twas a great run of stories though.
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Yeah, but it was also later used in Hulkie's own mag, BP. And if I remember correctly, the '70s UK reprints of Ditko's tales were altered to incorporate the 'calming down' aspect of his transformation from Hulkie into Brucie-boy.
I remember as a youngster reading an old comic and thinking that 'Artie Simek' was the most exotic name I'd ever heard!
Seeing Artie's name on the splash page above made me look online for examples of the credits boxes which often ended in a light-hearted jibe at the letterer, which lead to me learning that Sam Rosen's last work in comics was 1972. That really surprised me, I worked have guessed he was still working till at least a decade later, although maybe I'm mixing him up with his brother Joe.
There's never been a year in my life when I haven't thought that both of them were STILL around, DS, but that's likely because of the amount of reprints and back issues I've bought over the years. Sam Rosen was great at display lettering.
its very interesting to hear the Lee/Ditko working process from Ditko himself. Very enlightening. It seems to be a real working partnership, with Stan being far from the junior player on the creative side. The ToA Ditko ( and Kirby) issues are very overlooked, but are real classics in my opinion. I don't know why Ditko left the strip, but the transfer from Ditko to Kirby was seamless, with if anything, the strip getting even better under Kirby, and Rick Jones shockingly giving out the Hulk's identity was (for me) a milestone moment in Marvel's mid-60s purple patch.
Spirit of '64
ps All the same, my favourite issues of the Hulk were #5 and #6 of the original series. These two issues ( well their MWOM reprints) made me a marvelite.
My favourite early Hulk stories are issue #2's 'Terror Of The Toad Men', #4's 'Gladiator From Outer Space', and #5's 'Beauty And The Beast'. And I liked the TTA stories as well. Marvel have already done a Facsimile Edition of #1, but wouldn't it be great if they did the other five? (Though they did #6 as a True Believers issue.)
When I read the Ditko Hulk v Metal Master strip (Hulk issue 5) for the first time in MWOM I thought they were going to turn Hulk into a superhero - in that issue Hulk did revert to Banner fully or Banner didn't turn to the Hulk fully - Banners head remained on the Hulks body so he had to wear a Hulk mask etc to go full Hulk. I wasn't Kean on that idea and much preferred the original Hulk as a monster by Lee and Kirby.
Hulk #6 actually, McS. The Hulk's own face had returned by the time soldiers tore off the mask, so it was never a proposed long-term idea for the strip - just a gimmick for that ish. Much more interesting would've been if Banner had kept the Hulk's face - it would've taken more than a mask to hide that.
I have taken the chance to read once more Hulk #2 and the parts of #4 and #5 that you mention Kid.
#2 is a magnificent dish of Atlas monster and sci-fi all in one story, with Ditko masterfully adding horror into the mix, whereas #4 and #5 have lovely inks by Ayers who paired so well with Kirby at the time. There are great panel and full pages throughout, with one panel memorably being the basis of the brilliant cover of the 1972 Marvel Annual, where I first saw #2.
I wonder why Lee and Kirby went to 2 part stories in #3 to 5? Its as if the comic was set to have back-ups, which never came about.
Spirit of '64
Sorry meant to say issue 6 I got mixed up with issue 5 being a favourite of mine from the early Hulks ( which I also forgot to add). Hulk issue 6 was released as a True Believers in the unlikely event that you missed it.
That's an interesting point, S64. Perhaps Martin Goodman was considering cancelling the comic after issue 2, so Lee & Kirby switched to shorter stories so that Hulkie could continue in one of the anthology titles? When the comic continued, #6 was made a full issue, only to then have Goodman follow through on his giving it the axe. Pure speculation of course, but it makes a kind of sense. I actually featured that panel along with the cover to the Marvel Annual a few years back, if you're interested in seeing them side-by-side (if you haven't already read it).
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Not only didn't I miss that True Believers ish, McS, I referred to it in one of my above comments. You'll have to give up the speed-reading.
I feel ashamed :(
Straight to your bed - no supper!
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