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| Copyright MARVEL COMICS |
How Howard the Duck changed my comics collecting!
By the end of 1975 I had been buying my comics in a local Queens comic store for several years. I even did some favours for the owner, Joe, such as running an errand to Pennsylvania and running off his price list in my office.
The local comic stores made money by selling old and new comics. Joe, in particular, was friendly to his customers because he wanted something from them. Most comic book buyers will eventually cut down on their buying and then stop collecting. Joe then wants to then buy their collection for the cheapest price possible and people gave in to him all the time. In fact, Joe and the many other owners would often ask serious collectors what comics they had, looking to buy them. Joe knew very well of my collection.
I was buying about 30 comics a month from Joe: Regular comics, King Size and Annuals, and, at that time, Marvel had the more expensive magazines out. By today's standards that would be about $100 a month. (Then, maybe $20.)
The comic book store got the comics in a week or so earlier than the local candy store and they would put the comics you ordered away for you. So I came in excited to get, with my weekly order, Howard the Duck #1.
When I was given my stack, I saw no Howard and the following conversation ensued.
Me: "Is Howard out yet?"
Joe: Yes, but I'm not selling it.
Me: Huh? What's up?
Joe: I've made an agreement with all the comic stores in Queens. This is a popular comic and we deserve more money. We're holding onto all the Howard the Duck copies for three months and then we're going to sell it for $1. (That's four times the cover price of 25 cents.)
Me: You know that's illegal. That's called "restraint of trade".
Joe (laughing): Take us to court.
Me: I've been a steady customer for years and even done favours for you. Sell me the damn comic.
Joe (he really said this): This isn't The Godfather, I don't "owe" you a favour. I don't want to owe you a favor.
Me: Huh? What's up?
Joe: I've made an agreement with all the comic stores in Queens. This is a popular comic and we deserve more money. We're holding onto all the Howard the Duck copies for three months and then we're going to sell it for $1. (That's four times the cover price of 25 cents.)
Me: You know that's illegal. That's called "restraint of trade".
Joe (laughing): Take us to court.
Me: I've been a steady customer for years and even done favours for you. Sell me the damn comic.
Joe (he really said this): This isn't The Godfather, I don't "owe" you a favour. I don't want to owe you a favor.
I bought my comics and left. The very next Tuesday I went to pick up my daily newspaper at the local candy store. Right above the newspapers the new comics were on display and there was Howard the Duck for 25 cents. I bought it.
I no longer wanted to deal with Joe, but I felt I needed to go in that week and get the comics I'd ordered. (I wouldn't feel that way today.) When I picked up my comics the next week, I told Joe not to order any more for me, that I would come by and select them. This really wasn't true, I had no intention of returning to his store. Joe saw an opening - he thought I was giving up collecting. He knew what comics I had.
Joe: Giving up buying? Let me buy your collection. (He became rather insistent, but I left.)
For the next 6 months I bought my comics at a store near where I worked in Manhattan. By the end of the year I had given up buying comics. About three years later, I passed by Joe's store and went in to see if any new hardcovers had come out (Graphic Novels, EC reprints, Flash Gordon, that sort of thing). When Joe saw me he quickly, without a word, went to the back of the store, just to let me know he was ignoring me. About six months later I went in and the same thing happened. Soon, I moved out of the neighbourhood.
25 Years Later...
As I mentioned in an earlier post, having picked up the Overstreet guide, I now had an idea of how much my comics were worth. About 2002 I was in line at a locksmith in my old neighbourhood when I saw that the person behind me was Joe!
Me: Hey Joe! Remember me, I used to buy comics at your store.
Joe: Of course I remember you! Most collectors cut down on their buying and then sell me their collections. You just stopped buying one day.
Me: Well, I stopped collecting.
Joe: Do you still have your comics? Did you ever sell them?
Me: No, I still have them.
Joe (with a straight face now - he knew what I had): Well, you know that people don't buy old comics now. That stopped years ago. They only buy new comics today.
Me: Only new ones? Nothing for the old ones?
Joe: Nothing. Hey, for old times' sake, sight unseen, I'll buy your entire collection for $1,000! Sight unseen! (He knew I had Fantastic Four #1, Amazing Fantasy #15 and so on.)
Me: I can't believe that people only buy new comics.Joe: Yeah, the time of collectors wanting old stuff has long passed. They only want the new. You're one of the few keeping their old comics, everyone else has gotten rid of them.
Me: Well, I liked them. And still do.
Joe: Let me know before I change my mind! (He gave me his card.)
How low can you go? Today, I wish I'd led him on, but I was so surprised I just got my key made and went on with my life. I presume that Joe crawled back under his rock.
That is truly awful for any business person / people to behave like that regardless of the business they are involved in. you expect then to try to get the best price for themselves, but to blatantly lie like that beggars belief. Although it will never happen now I would love for US comics to be sold in newsagents it would get rid of comic store owners like Joe and bring comics back to the general public.
ReplyDeleteThose were the days, eh, McS? Stroll into any John Menzies, R.S. McColl's, or independent corner newsagent's and take your pick of piles of Marvel and DC mags. What the heck was wrong with that way of doing things? If I won the Lottery I'd set up a wee newsagent's and make it just like a '60s or '70s one.
ReplyDeleteBoy are these posts painting a dire picture of comics dealers! They seem to be even lower down the food chain than used car sellers.
ReplyDeleteGreat reading and quite the time capsule of a certain era in comics, one that I look back fondly on as, much the same with music and other media of the 60s and 70s, will never be repeated again.
Thanks Barry, and Kid, for posting these.
And special thanks to Barry for doing most of the work while I get a slice of the credit, PC. Why can't it be like this all the time? With everything!
ReplyDeletePhillip, I think these guys helped EBAY become a major force in comic sales. That is a major reason why so many comic stores have closed, they aren't the major seller of old comics. Also, of course, regular comic sales are down too.
ReplyDeleteIf I won the lottery I'd buy Barry's collection, £2,000 double what Joe paid can't say fairer that that lol. Yeah I loved the old newsagents when they had spinner racks full of comics. OK so you rarely got every issue of your favourite title but imho it was fun and exciting searching for them...and you could get a wee sweetie (candy bar for Barry not a lady)as well.
ReplyDeleteAlso, probably when comic stores were first 'taking off', BP, some of them would've been successful (initially) and other folks jumped on the bandwagon hoping to make money too, resulting in there being just far too many of them, resulting in supply outstripping demand in some areas. In the UK, as everybody knows, we have a thriving comic industry. (I do irony ever so well.)
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I kind of like that idea of getting a wee sweetie (lady) with my comics, McS. I think I can spot a gap in the market. Thanks for the idea. Hey, you'll never get rich throwing your money-making schemes around like that.
Yes, those were the days when you could buy American Marvel comics in WH Smiths :)
ReplyDeleteBarry's posts are fascinating reading. Keep up the good work!
I'm hoping he does, CJ - otherwise you'll have to make do with the p*sh I write. Doesn't bear thinking about, does it? ('Cos then I'd have to do some work.)
ReplyDeleteBarry's posts have been unbelievable. Would put many off comics collecting forever. But the photos were sheer heaven!
ReplyDeleteSpirit of'64
At a quick count, I only have six of those original comics (plus seven facsimiles and six True Believers reprints) so it's good to see photos of the 'first editions'.
ReplyDeleteBarry, that sounds like Joe Parente on Ascan Avenue, off Austin Street. Unless Queens had two comic dealers like that I was a customer there back when Howard the Duck #1 came out and that's a familiar memory.
ReplyDeleteCrivens is turning into Crimewatch. All you crooked comics dealers beware - we're coming for you.
ReplyDeleteTerranova47: you are right! It was him. I lived in that neighborhood. In fact I was born when my parents were living on Austin Street!
ReplyDeleteSmall world. (Can you name the Bond film, BP?)
ReplyDeleteKid, I am not sure what you mean. Of course, the world is not enough.
ReplyDelete"Small world" is what Bond says to one of the hoods in the hearse at the airport when he says "Hey, I gotta brudder" - in Diamonds Are Forever.
ReplyDeleteI seem to have been quite lucky in not having many encounters with dodgy dealers.
ReplyDeleteI did once find an early Captain Marvel comic at a decent price, and when I took it to the counter the aforementioned NC decided it had been priced in error and quoted me a much higher price! (Which I declined, out of principle). I feel that was more to do with eccentricity and the general lack of organisation in his business rather than malice or greed though!
'Eccentric' is being kind, DS - he was really just bonkers. A bit of a 'character' as they say, but it's a shame he's gone.
ReplyDeleteBarry, you may remember that the dealer on Ascan Avenue was into comics as a side line because his teenage son read them His business was mostly selling original art of Pulp Magazine covers. I had interested him in selling British comics and had a load of British Marvels sent to him. I also supplied him with some Garth reprints that Kid has just mentioned on this blog.
ReplyDeleteAt one point I lent him a reprint of Varoomshka by John Kent a British newspaper strip. It was never returned to me in spite of numerous requests.
The best selection of comics in Forrest Hills was the newsstand on 71st Avenue next to the subway. I used to buy there when picking up The Sunday New York Times on Saturday night.
So it's definitely confirmed then - the guy's a crook! Isn't it amazing that some comics dealers seem to think that once you drop off anything to their shop on loan (or consignment), it officially belongs to them. Hope the guy eventually got his comeuppance. Either of you know what the guy's doing now?
ReplyDeleteI loaned him a few things too and he never returned them. He was a crook! The candy there was called Admiration and it was great. Joe also did sell original comic book art. His son by the way was actually a nasty young man. Not just me but he was rude to a lot of other people. Kid, Joe is now pushing up daisies and has been for the last decade. His son, five years ago, was trying to sell Off What his father had left him.
ReplyDeleteA lot of which obviously never belonged to him to start with, BP. Well, I'm not going to gloat at the man's demise, but both he and his son didn't/don't sound like very nice people.
ReplyDeleteTerranova and Kid,
ReplyDeleteAbout 1975 NBC had a news magazine. I video taped an episode they did about Siegal and Shuster and Superman. Everything thinks they got next to nothing for their sale of the character. NBC showed court documents, including checks made out to them for about $880,000. Today that would be over $9,000,000. So they didn't walk away with nothing.
Joe wanted to see this tape and I loaned it to him, foolishly. It was an important tape to have but he virtually begged to borrow it. He never, ever, made any attempt to return it. Now that I think of it, it was probably one of the reasons he never faced me when I returned to the store.
As you know, BP, Siegel & Shuster made a pile of money out of Superman from DC over the years - even before the '70s settlement they got around the time of the movie. Yet they kept going back for more when they'd spent it all. They weren't the 'hard-done-to' creators that they made themselves out to be. (Even Jack Kirby, though he didn't get the big cheques that S&S got, wasn't exactly poor by the standards of the day.)
ReplyDeleteYeah, Joe probably thought you were going to ask him to return all the things you'd loaned him, so made himself scarce at the back of the store. I once lent a pal a camera flash. Weeks or months later, I asked him if he'd finished with it and he said one of his pals had borrowed it from him. I scolded him for lending my possessions to others without my consent (or even knowledge) and asked him to get it back. He eventually said his pal didn't know where it was with such a casual indifference that suggested he considered the matter to be closed. I said that if I didn't get my camera flash back - or what it had cost me - there would be trouble of a physical kind for both him and his pal. The price of the flash was soon handed over. I never lent him anything again. Some people, eh?
Kid,
ReplyDeleteWe se this a bit differently.
Of course Siegal and Shuster did get money from Superman. But Donenfeld and Liebowitz were almost thieves. The virtually “stole” National Allied Comics (We call it now DC) from Malcom Wheeler Nicholson. (They sent him on vacation then declared bankruptcy and acquired the company when he was away.) While S & S did ok, Donenfeld and Liebowitz were making millions a yar in publishing, radio shows, movies, licensing, etc.
While S and S did get a huge amount of money, they had to pay for their studio and all the artists and writers working there. I don’t know how much money they had to pay out but it was a lot.
Then DC pulled rug out from them with Superboy, showing that DC was going to use their material but get rid of them. Donenfeld and Liebowitz were knew they were living near poverty and did nothing about the two most important people to their company.
Yes, we can discuss Marvel and Kirby, but in the end, Marvel gave Roz Kirby a pension after Jack died.
One more thing: the original “DC” did nothing for S & S. It was Time Warmer, not Donenfeld and Liebowitz that came through. Same for Marvel and Kirby, it was Disney that came through.
Actually, S&S were given a large amount of money for Superboy, BP, though it may have been after they complained to National. And the original DC did give money in settlement from time to time (each time S&S agreed that they were signing away any rights they MAY have had to the character), although it was the '70s owners of DC - and later Time Warner (I think) - who gave them their '70s 'pensions' and agreed to 'royalties' to the Siegel estate. I'm not sure whether the Shuster estate benefited in this way, because current Superman mags say something like 'By arrangement with the Siegel estate' - no mention of Shuster apart from in the creator credits.
ReplyDeleteAs for Roz's pension (and even with the '70s DC pension for S&S), that was mainly a public relations exercise because the tide of public opinion was turning against DC and Marvel. It was cheaper to come to some kind of arrangement than pay lawyers an even bigger fortune to drag things through the courts for however many more years. The fact that Jack's family and the Siegel estate agreed to settle indicates that they probably weren't convinced they'd win.
Kid, you are wrong about Superboy. While alive S and S lost all legal battles and got nothing for it even after long legal battles.
ReplyDeleteJean Peavy, the sole heir and executor to Shuster's estate, in 1992 signed a settlement with DC which terminated all of her rights for ownership. The Siegals did not do that…probably because there were more heirs. Peavy settlement didn’t include the items Siegel’s estate did.
According to a detailed account on Wikipedia, here's what happened in regard to Superboy:
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Regarding the ownership of Superboy
National argued that Superboy was a work made for hire, but Judge Young rejected this argument because Detective Comics, Inc., on both occasions Siegel proposed his idea, had not indicated within six weeks of submission that it wished to publish Superboy, thereby effectively refusing it under the terms of their September 1938 contract.
DETECTIVE COMICS, INC. did not within six weeks after the submission of the said script or scenario indicate its election to publish the said comic strip SUPERBOY.
— Judge Young, April 12, 1948
National argued that Superboy was a derivative work of Superman, but Young ruled that Superboy was a separate entity.[3]
I cannot accept defendants view that Superboy was in reality Superman. I think Superboy was a separate and distinct entity. In having published Superboy without right, plaintiffs are entitled to an injunction preventing such publication and under the circumstances I believe the defendants should account as to the income received from such publication and that plaintiffs should be given an opportunity to proves any damages they have sustained on account thereof.
— Judge Young, November 21, 1947
On April 12, 1948, Young ruled that Siegel was "the originator and the sole owner" of Superboy, and ordered National to account for the proceeds it made of Superboy and to cease publishing Superboy stories.[19]
Regarding unpaid royalties
Siegel and Shuster argued that National had cheated them of their royalties from the radio adaptation of Superman and merchandising. Their December 1939 contract entitled them to 5% of the net proceeds from all commercial exploitation of Superman beyond books, magazines, and newspapers. They argued that National had understated the proceeds and did not allow Siegel and Shuster access to the accounting records. Judge Young agreed that there were irregularities and decided an official accounting of all proceeds made from Superman was appropriate.
...defendant NATIONAL COMICS PUBLICATIONS, INC. and INDEPENDENT NEWS CO. INC. shall account to plaintiffs before said Official Referee for all profits realized by said NATIONAL COMICS PUBLICATIONS, INC., DETECTIVE COMICS, INC., SUPERMAN, INC. and INDEPENDENT NEWS CO., INC. through the production of radio features and moving pictures entitled SUPERMAN and by the sale of commercial licenses of all kinds, and that the profits derived therefrom be divided according to law, and that the plaintifffs have their just share thereof...
— Judge Young, April 12, 1948
Conclusion
Judge Young concluded, in April 1948, that National owned Superman but Siegel owned Superboy. He ordered National to account before the court all proceeds made from Superman and Superboy.
The parties instead chose to settle out-of-court. National paid Siegel and Shuster $94,013.16 ($1,000,420 when adjusted for inflation) for the rights to both Superman and Superboy.[13] On May 21, 1948, Young entered a final judgment which vacated his April judgment, and ruled that the copyrights to Superman and Superboy belonged to National Comics Publications, Inc.:
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Note that the copyrights to Superman and Superboy only then belonged to National because in S&S's out-of-court settlement which netted them $94,013.16, they sold National the rights.
That £94,013.16 sure is a lot of 'nothing', BP.
Let me clarify that: Ownership of Superman had already been decided in National's favour, so the out of court settlement money was for ownership of Superboy, and (obviously) UNDISPUTED ownership of Superman. In other words, S&S were agreeing that National owned Superman and that they, essentially, would no longer contest the fact. They didn't stick to their agreement and came back again and again and again.
ReplyDeleteKid, that is what confused me. I remember the court ruling in favor of DC, but I was unaware that there was a "settlement" too.
ReplyDeleteIt would confuse anyone, BP. There's a lot of back and forth and it's very convoluted. However, Superboy was ruled to belong solely to Siegel - which he then promptly sold to National in an out-of-court agreement. You'd need a scorecard to keep up. I'm not even sure that I understand all the minute detail.
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