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'Tis said by some that The Fantastic Four were based on The Challengers Of The Unknown, thereby proving that Jack Kirby was the sole creator of Marvel Comics' first family, but there are difficulties with that view. Firstly, the two main similarities are that there are four in each group, and that both groups survived a crash from the skies, but there are more differences than similarities. For example, the Challs are all men and none of them have superpowers, whereas the FF are three men and a gal, who do (have superpowers that is).
Secondly, the Challs only flew in a plane and were going from one place to another in the US, the FF were in a spaceship aimed for the stars. The Challs survived an actual out-of-control crash, whereas the FF's rocket's automatic pilot took over and guided it to a rough-but-safe landing. But there's another factor to consider. The Challengers, it seems, were not created by Kirby alone, but reputedly with the collaboration of either Joe Simon or Dave Wood (or maybe even both) so that would possibly make both men as much the co-creators of the FF as Kirby.
So even if it was Jack who took the idea for the FF to Stan Lee, then it was hardly an original one dreamed up solely by himself. It's possible, though, that once Stan and Jack got together to discuss a new team book (because of the popularity of DC's Justice League Of America), Jack threw in the 'survivors' aspect, which Stan then included in his two-page synopsis for the FF's very first ish, but the truth is we'll never really know. Another thing is that the Challs motivation for their adventures was that they regarded themselves as 'living on borrowed time', but the FF's motivation was to use their new powers to help mankind. In short, the challs were thrill-seekers, the FF were inspired by altruism.
But hey, none of that matters, because we're not here to talk about The Fantastic Four - we're here to look at the 12 covers illustrated by Jack Kirby for DC. I kinda got sidetracked, but I'm sure you won't hold it against me as you visually devour the dynamic and delectably drawn dozen images presented for your deliberation and delight.
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Some great covers there. I always enjoyed the Callengers comics and picked up a couple of the reprint comics in the early 1970s. I especially enjoyed the Mike Nasser illustrated series from 1977/78 and Jerry Ordways stunning mini series of a few years ago . They were a welcome change from the constant production line of superhero titles at this time
ReplyDeleteCan't remember whether I've got the Ordway series or not, McS. Should have, but couldn't swear to it. Will have to check, 'cos I like Ordway's art.
ReplyDeleteI was never a huge fan of Challengers, mostly because my awareness of them came from the reprint books that DC issued in 1973 starting with issue #78, and did not find the stories particularly engaging. But it is a great concept. The time that I met Neal Adams at the NYCC in 2009, he said that he loved the whole idea of the Challengers of the Unknown, and he had some ideas if he was ever given the chance to do a run on the comic. He did do some great covers on the original run (take a look at #70, #71, #72) and also drew half of the last story in #74 (just before the book became a reprint book) because it featured Deadman alongside the Challengers.
ReplyDeleteI recently picked up a text paperback of Challengers of the Unknown, written by Ron Goulart and published in 1977 to co-incide with the relaunch of the Challengers comic at that time, so Warners must have had high hopes for the concept. It would make a great TV series.
My favourite Challengers book is the trade book of the mini-series by Jeph Loeb and Tim Sale.
It's unclear who actually wrote the Kirby drawn mags, B, because some reprints credit them to him, others to Dave Wood - maybe it was a bit of both. It must be admitted though, that the scripts were a dry read, and didn't make one character sound any different from another. Makes you wonder how they'd have read had Stan Lee scripted them, eh? The Wally Wood inked strips are a thing of beauty though, art-wise.
ReplyDeleteGood point about pondering what Challengers could have been with the input of Stan Lee as scripter. Kirby was a great plotter and creator of awesome concepts, but I cannot remember any character Kirby created that became a three-dimensional individual with self-doubts and the whole magilla of human foibles and humour that Stan was able to imbue into his coterie of heroes in the early sixties at Marvel. Challengers written by Stan would have been great. Challengers of course draws on elements of Doc Savage’s band of assistants, as does Fantastic Four for that matter. But Fantastic Four had banter and interaction between the heroic team members. The Challengers team lacked a leader with personality, individuals with issues, and so the stories are simply hokey SF novelllas with no resonance to the reader (or me, at least). IMHO.
DeleteGood covers, though. I'll also look out for a Wally Wood issue or two.
Yeah, I always felt that Kirby-scripted characters were one-dimensional and the stories were easily forgettable. Incidentally, there's a collected softcover edition of Kirby's Challengers that came out a few years ago - should be easy to track down. It was preceded by a two-volume hardback pair (sold separately) just a few years before.
ReplyDeleteYeah, that scripting mystery. Not go into the weeds but...
ReplyDeleteKirby says he wrote everything he drew. But DC surely made no exception for him. That is, he was given a script for the Chall stories written by the Wood brothers or whoever. (Should say, I have no idea whether there was any story conference between Kirby and his editor worked out the plot which I *think* was SOP then.)
Just surmising that Kirby took the full script and and edited it in the course of pencilling it, rewriting the copy as needed. (One of the few certain pre-Marvel jobs Kirby did where's he's credited with scripting is the Yellow Claw at Atlas. IMO the writing style aligns well enough with the scripting on the Challengers.)
Meanwhile, there's a similar issue a couple of years later re the Marvel monster stuff: Larry Lieber insists he provided full scripts, Kirby claimed to script those. I'm going to throw out the same theory as the Challs: he got a full scripted and did to it what he wished: editing it in his pencilling, rewriting the copy as needed. Which to sort of say that the Woods, Lieber and Kirby (at the tie) all had a similar enough anodyne writing style that all read the same.
I mean, yeah, I was wondering how the Woods and Kirby could both have written the Chall stories and this the best I can do.
Man, it sucks when stuff never makes it into a historical record...
I suspect, as you suggest, that Kirby took the bare bones of scripts supplied by others and did more or less his own thing with them, but that doesn't warrant a sole writer's credit, I'd say. I have a vague recollection that he did this with Green Arrow and the writer(s) weren't entirely happy, but I'd have to check to be sure.
ReplyDeleteLarry wrote full scripts based usually on plots supplied by Stan, but it's possible that Stan and Jack discussed the plots before Stan passed them on to Larry, although that's by no means certain. One thing that IS certain, is that the script for Thor's debut in Journey Into Mystery #83 is better crafted than just about anything that Jack ever scripted. And the caption on the splash page of Iron Man's debut in Tales Of Suspense #39 really sets the mood.
As far as I know, all the official credits at those times were to the Wood brothers or Lieber, none for Kirby.
DeleteKirby, tho’, repeatedly insisted that he wrote everything he drew. An exaggeration, no doubt, but I was trying to reconcile that claim with a situation in which he had been given full scripts. So that’s how I’m willing to split the baby, so to speak. IMO, Kirby’s scripting was the same dull stuff as the Wood brothers and Lieber. So who can tell where the script ends and any rewriting by Kirby begins?
(Of course, during much of the 60s, much of his Marvel work were his plots or coplotted with Lee. In the latter case, by breaking down the story, he was the writer, with a scripter providing the copy.
As for your examples, Kid, Lee was a very hands on editor.
It depends on the plots he was given by his brother, I suppose, but Larry was very capable of rising to the occasion. Just two examples are Thor and Iron Man's origins, which I thought were very well scripted.
ReplyDeleteThe collected editions of the Challs credit Jack as sole writer on some stories, with other writers on other stories, sometimes a co-credit on some of them, and others 'credited' to 'Unknown'. The Challs were purportedly co-created by Jack and Joe Simon, but I can't remember ever seeing his name listed. I seem to have a vague memory of the credits on Challengers not always being consistent, but as you say, Jack claimed to have written everything.
Naughty Jack?
As I hope I made clear, Kirby wrote or in the case of the Challengers and Lieber scripts edited everything he drew in those years.
DeleteMeanwhile, looks like the Challengers was an idea sitting around unwanted til it was wanted like the Spider-Man that wasn’t. Which, now that I think about it, that Kirby version (which Simon mucky used for Archie’s Fly) can be the basis of a Marvel comics mini.
It was Joe Simon and Jack Oleck that came up with the Spiderman (no hyphen) idea that later morphed into the Silver Spider and morphed again into The Fly. It seems that Jack had a habit of claiming credit for everything, something that critics accuse Stan Lee of. Larry Lieber came up with the names Don Blake, Tony Stark, Hank Pym, Uru, and maybe even a few others, so it's uncertain to just what degree Jack 'edited' Lieber's scripts, which seem to have been panel-by-panel descriptions.
ReplyDeleteThe bummer is we’ll never know…
DeleteInteresting to speculate though, eh?
ReplyDelete