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| Copyright MARVEL COMICS |
I feel blessed, blessed I tell you, for the pure accident of my birth - for it was thanks to that cosmic coincidence that I saw the medium of comic books at its best, during the formation of the Fighting Marvel Age of Comics.
Yes, I know that's not how Stan Lee styled the era of his breakthrough, if only
because it's not alliterative. But I call it that, because the way Marvel
opened up the medium for the depiction of Big Spectacular Fight-Scenes was one
of the things that made the company great.
There were other aspects of the breakthrough. "Heroes with problems". More thought went into the SF and fantasy concepts. Lee's unequalled ability to give
all of his heroes slightly different ways of speaking and reacting. But I think
the sheer visceral power of Marvel fight-scenes may have been at least as
important as any of these.
One has to remember that even though superheroes and related genres had been
around for over twenty years, the people who made Golden Age comics in the U.S.
had grown up with other media when they ended up writing and drawing them. The
early raconteurs modelled early comics mostly on prose pulp stories, crossed
with elements from the comic strip medium. Both media did sometimes use
spectacular fight-scenes - but that wasn't a specialty. As a result, even
though there are some kick-ass fight-scenes in Golden Age comics, there aren't
as many as you might expect. Even those masters of kick-assery, Joe Simon and
Jack Kirby, varied a lot as to their use of sheer spectacle - though when they
did it, they were among the best.
Even when Lee launched the Marvel imprint in the
early 1960s, a lot of the earliest Fantastic Fours are fairly talky, like the
best selling DC Comics of the time. I tend to think that their second big
feature, The Hulk, may have opened Lee and Kirby up to a more visceral approach
to comic-book action - though to be sure, the Hulk's first comic pooped out
after six issues. But if it's true that great artists challenge each other,
then Steve Ditko rose to Kirby's challenge. The first couple of issues of
Spider-Man were a little on the sedate side, fight-wise - but then you get The
Vulture in issue #2 and Doc Ock in #3, and there was no going back. Some
artists, like Bob Powell and Alex Toth, didn't get this new approach, but
others - Gene Colan, John Buscema, John Romita - assimilated the high-action
approach to the funnybook page.
Back in 2011, having already started a blog dealing with comics and other
reading materials, I launched NATURALISTIC UNCANNY MARVELOUS, a review-blog for
all types of fantasy-films. Yet from time to time I wondered what it would be
like to devote a blog just to fantasy-films with spectacular action-scenes (or
even just the failed attempt at same). So I finally did so, with my newest blog
THE GRAND SUPERHERO OPERA. Most of what I post there was already blogged on
NUM, but I think I found an interesting way to organize the reviews into
subgroups, with perhaps humorous names like "Costumed Crusaders", "Space the Fighting Frontier", and "Fight Like a Girl".
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| Copyright relevant owner |
So that's my hype for the new blog (which you can find by clicking here), but I am curious to know if the readers at Crivens have any similar
orientation toward fight-scenes in general. I think of the Fleetway books as
the equivalent of sixties Marvel in terms of kick-ass fight-scenes, but I admit
there's a lot of British work of which I only have partial knowledge, like the
work of Frank Bellamy. How did fight-scenes evolve in British comics over the
years, compared to the way they did in the U.S.?
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C'mon, Crivvies - don't let GP down. Consider his question and give him your answer. After all, he wrote this specially for you!
When I read DC comics of the early sixties, Superman, the LSH, Atom etc. etc. fought villains but they were more intellectual stories...sort of! Marvel heroes, to my mind bashed each other up, which was a new twist as they had villains enough not to, and they therefore seemed more bestial to me. Now why I'm responding to GP's post, is this question of British comics and fight scenes. Let's eliminate Captain Hurricane, Battler Britton, etc. as these are war stories. Bellamy was mentioned, but of course it was Tom Tully who wrote Bellamy's "Hetos the Spartan" and again despite being fantasy, this was war. Now what interests me more is "Janus Stark", "Charlie Peace" or things like "House of Dollmann". Conflict, fights, but a narrative which is not focussed on the idea of "smash 'me, bash 'em, crash 'em", like Stan Lee's ventures. I await someone's reasoned dissertation!
ReplyDeleteHetos the Spartan being the brother of the slightly more famous Heros, eh, S4A? Captain Hurricane was more 'comic' violence when I read the strips, but may've started out as slightly more realistic (by the standards of comics at the time), but I never really detected any development in British comics until, perhaps, 2000 A.D. Adventure strip in the '60s and '70s were told more or less the same as adventure strips in the '50s, probably because the same stable of writers were involved. Fights between characters happened of course, but they weren't illustrated in the same spectacular way as in a '60s Marvel comic, often being depicted quite matter-of-factly and in a few panels.
ReplyDeleteI never noticed the fight scenes in Marvel being that different to DC etc but after having a flip through a few comics from 1968 to 1973 ( that I had handy) that's very true. The fight scene that for me proves this is the classic Sal Buscema power punch where the character is sent flying off the page after a series of similar fight scenes. Kirby, big John Buscema Starlin, Colan etc etc also had well structured ongoing fight scenes that ended in a great "punch" . DC on the other hand tended to have the hero under the thumb and the fight ended by the hero knocking the Gillian out with a single panel punch. I just assumed that as UK adventure comics were restricted to 2 or 3 pages a week big fight scenes were not possible
ReplyDeleteThat's one I've never heard of before, McS - The Gillian. What were his/her powers? (Yes, I know you meant villain!) I sometimes wonder if, in US comics, the words of the story were there to be illustrated by the drawings, whereas in UK comics, the drawings were there simply to convey what was in the words - or was it vice versa? They probably could've done big fight scenes in UK comics if they'd wanted to, but it would be panel-by-panel fighting as opposed to page-by-page fighting like in US comics. However, UK comics were more interested in telling good solid stories, than in having punch-ups for the sake of it.
ReplyDeleteSorry was on the train texting with no glasses. That a good point. I think certainly up until 200AD UK comics focused on the story ( and we had some great stories) rather than the art.
ReplyDeleteI'm amazed by the mistakes I make when I try typing without wearing reading glasses, McS. It's no fun this getting old lark, is it?!
ReplyDeleteYeah it's depressing at times. I now need to wear my glasses to read everything in type. I'm ok long distance and for driving but words on text and paper are a semi blur.
ReplyDeleteI thought my long-distance vision was good until I tried on a pair of glasses - everything became so much clearer. Until then, I'd never noticed the decline.
ReplyDeleteFunny. I actually think what Marvel did better than DC was the actual soap opera stories! Fight scenes were fun and all but I remember the personal aspects of Spidey’s stories more. One panel at the end of an issue when Peter has him arm in a sling wondering where his life is going. Issue 50 where he stops being Spidey for a while.
ReplyDeleteNot to say I didn’t love Kirby’s action, I loved the treasury Thor editions where he fought Hercules and Mangog.
I think there was a time when Marvel did just about everything better than DC, PS. Those days are gone, and now it's hard to tell the difference between them (if there is one). I've got those two Thor Treasury Editions - great, weren't they?!
ReplyDeleteMarvel and DC are now too dark, depressing and have both totally lost their direction, no wonder they have low print runs and are not attracting new audiences of kids. I always enjoyed the soap opera elements of Marvel as well great teenage / young adult angst to brooding androids all done well. Now they all seem to be populated with psychotic characters.
ReplyDeleteYeah, they've lost that sense of fun they used to have, McS, even amongst the soap opera angst. I think the comics are only kept going to foster brand recognition for the movies and merchandise these days, which is where the big money is. The circulation of comics is a fraction of what it used to be in our day. The Beano and 2000 A.D. would've been cancelled years ago if they were seen purely as part of a comics 'industry', and not a gateway to other things for the publishers.
ReplyDeleteStandby4 action--
ReplyDeleteIn a lot of American pulps and comic strips, too, most stories tended to emphasize some melodramatic conflict, and if there was a big fight between hero and villain it almost always appeared just at the end, rather than seeing two-three fights even in a long strip sequence or a "full-length" pulp novel. The earliest exception I can think of right off is an early Siegel/Schuster two-part Superman, in which the hero and a super-powered Luthor fight in the streets like the later Marvel characters, I think at least twice.
I've only seen one gorgeous repro page of "Heros" in a comics encyclopedia. Going on that I assumed it was naturalistic historical adventure. Did it have things like magic or advanced science in it too?
McScotty,
ReplyDeleteYeah, sheer length can be a problem. That's why I think even the most violent early American strips, such as Dick Tracy, saved the fights and shootouts for the end. If the artist was doing a daily, he probably tended to situate all the action within a Monday-Friday sequence, so that his panting public wouldn't get cheesed off if they missed the big finish.
Phil S--
ReplyDeleteThe four-issue long Mangog Saga is a personal favorite of mine as well.
McScotty and Kid--
ReplyDeleteBeing superficially dark is a big part of the problem, all right. Though I don't know what you-plural think of Frank Miller, I think that at his best he still puts a certain amount of fun even into very dark or psychologically dense works. Most Miller-imitators can't change things up that fast; they'll have characters sitting around brooding about their problems-- or worse, their politics-- for whole issues, rather than realizing that "less is more." That's why I said earlier that I thought Fleetway had some of the same action-orientation as early Marvel. Even the comparatively sedate Dan Dare of the fifties got upgraded in the kickass department, as I recall.
Kudos to Kid for doing a bang-up job with adding the graphics I was too lazy to select!
I must confess that I loved Miller's 'Born Again' 7 ish series, but that was at a time when 'darkness' was a relative rarity as opposed to the norm. As for Heros The Spartan, B, my knowledge about the strip is spartan in itself (hey, Kid made a funny), so the best bet would be to Google it - that's what I'm planning to do. I never really noticed any development in UK strips to be honest - they always seemed done in the same way to me. I can't recall any of them ever having anything resembling a Kirby fight-fest, which was usually choreographed like a ballet in some instances.
ReplyDeleteAs for the graphics, I might add FF #1 to them.
I think when the dark brooding thing is done well (Miller on Batman and DD etc,) it's fine. But sadly when that is replicated by lesser talents it gets diluted into basic themes rather than a story that happens to have a brooding side to it , if that makes sense. Now it's the norm for maniacs to be the villains brutalising their victims with no real backstory and just showing violence in graphic throwaway detail in some attempt for it to seem "mature" or for shock value. And the heroes are all troubled souls, it's just so predictable and "formulatic " now. New comics are like reading a Mad magazine parody. I never thought I would long for the days of villains like the Crazy Quilt 😊
ReplyDeleteMeant to say great post Gene .
Funny thing is, McS, in a sense Spider-Man was quite dark when you think about it. A teen whose uncle is murdered because of the teen's refusal to stop a criminal. Parker then has the guilt of knowing he was responsible for his uncle's death for the rest of his life. Of course, the way Stan handled things, the strip still had humour and the stories weren't what could be called dark, but Spidey's origin certainly had overtones of it. Trouble nowadays is that writers aren't aiming their comics at kids, but at adults who don't like to think of comics as being for kids.
ReplyDeleteAgree, but for me I think it's the portrayal and glorification of violence now on the page rather than the actual use of it as a storyline that's the issue. Adventure / superheroes are mostly based on violence by there very nature but Lee and Ditko largely presented the death of Uncle Ben off stage, and showed Peters remorse and how awful it was,the murder wasn't the basis of the take. Today you would see Uncle Ben being tortured first before the final deed all in gory colour. Lee/Ditko wrote and drew it perfectly imho
ReplyDeleteIndeed, McS, Lee & Ditko knew how to present what was a dark theme (Uncle Ben's murder) in a palatable form that didn't dwell on the violence. I was just pointing out that there's dark theme in the background of Spidey's origin, but it isn't just thrown in for the sake of it and isn't depicted gratuitously. And there's a redemptive element to the story, with a positive message. "With great power, etc."
ReplyDeleteTo Gene Phillips
ReplyDeleteSorry to take so long to respond. Total knee replacement distracted me from answering!
>>I've only seen one gorgeous repro page of "Heros" in a comics encyclopedia. Going on that I assumed it was naturalistic historical adventure. Did it have things like magic or advanced science in it too?
HEROS THE SPARTAN (see Kid! I can type!) was a sword and sorcery type strip based on a Spartan in the Roman army. There was loads of fantastic creatures and humanoid life forms, and yes, it had magic, but no advanced science. Have a look at my blog ( Frank Bellamy) and search for Heros, where you'll see loads of examples, or save up and buy the Book Palace reprint although they are now even pricier as there are only a few left of both editions!!
Thanks for the info, NB, I'm sure GP will appreciate you taking the time to respond, as do I. Hope your knee is all better now, and that the rest of you is hanging together.
ReplyDeleteIt's doing well thanks Kid. It takes time and lots of exercises!
ReplyDeleteYou'll soon be running marathons, NB. (In my case, I just used to eat them.)
ReplyDelete