Hi, readers. Quick, answer this question: What is your favourite character created by DC? Read on. You may be wrong!!!!!
I was talking to my friend Carl about how the creation of characters seemed to have left the field. We mentioned that almost all of the movie characters from Marvel come from the era 1961-1965 and 1970-1972 (Blade and Deadpool).
Then he said "And DC created most of their marquee characters from 1938-1945." I thought about and said "Not so fast, DC never was a creator of characters, they were a good buyer of intellectual properties."
Superman was not developed at DC. Siegel and Shuster created Superman in their homes and tried to sell it to the comics strip syndicators. DC bought Superman from them, they did not create or initiate it.
Batman was created by Bob Kane (Robert Kahn) and Bill Finger, and DC bought the character from them.
The Flash, Green Lantern, Wonder Woman, Justice Society (later the Justice League), Atom, and Hawkman all came from All-American Comic Company. This was a separate company from DC, with different offices and staff, but was co-owned by two of the publishers of DC with M.C. Gaines. It was not DC.
Blackhawk, Plastic Man, G.I. Combat were bought from Quality Comics. The Spirit, created by Will Eisner also appeared in Quality comics. He too was bought by DC.
Captain Marvel (Shazam) was bought from Fawcett - and Alfred E. Neuman from EC.
Harley Quinn was created by the animators of the Batman animated series, not the comic book staff.
Even the Watchmen were versions of characters created by Charlton.
Many of the 'second-string' heroes and fillers (Tommy Tomorrow and Congo Bill) were created by DC but not many of the 'big boys'. (Recently, Green Arrow and Aquaman have become popular on TV and in the movies.)
So DC was great in buying characters, never in creating them. Yet look what Marvel created in the early 1960s: Fantastic Four, Spider-Man, Avengers, X-Men, Daredevil, Thor, Iron Man, The Hulk, Sgt. Fury, Inhumans, Black Panther, Dr. Strange, Silver Surfer, S.H.I.E.L.D. and so much more.
Very interesting post and something I'd never considered before. Trying to think of a character DC created, the earliest I could come up with (excluding revamps like the Barry Allen Flash or the Hal Jordan Green Lantern) was Martian Manhunter, which I think was in the mid 1950s.
ReplyDeleteMaybe the atmosphere at Marvel was just more conducive to creativity - it is certainly said to have been much looser than the very formal DC offices. I believe that up til the seventies, DC staffers had to wear formal office clothing and had to put on a jacket even to visit the toilet!
Incidentally Barry, I noticed a letter from yourself recently in a 60s Daredevil issue- good to see you're still as passionate about comics after all this time!
What I find interesting, DS, is that even when Kirby was at DC during the '50s (without Joe Simon), the only thing I can think of him coming up with is Challengers of the Unknown. Why wasn't he more creative at this time. Yet, come 1961, he and Stan Lee came out with all the characters Barry listed. Jack had been back at Marvel (or whatever it was calling itself at the time) for a few years, yet he was just producing monster and western stories. If it hadn't been for the Justice League to prompt the FF, we may never have had a Marvel Age of comics.
ReplyDelete(See, Barry, you're famous.)
Challengers of the Unknown was created by Simon-Kirby and brought to DC. Green Arrow and Aquqman were take-offs of Batman and Subby. There were though all the Legion superheroes, the Doom Patrol, the Atom, the Creeper, Hawk and Dove, Adam Strange, the Metal Men and Metamorpho. But is it correct to compare any publisher to Silver Age Marvel? I don't think any company can compare to the brilliant inventiveness that came from Jack, Stan and Steve. Otherwise wasn't DC a company that did more than just super-heroes? It did it all..... humour, romance, teen, cars, war, mystery, sports, adventure.....and gorillas!
ReplyDeleteKirby may have come up with other concepts for DC had he not been black-balled by them over the Sky Masters court case. But yes, it was probably right time, right place for both Stan and Jack.
ReplyDeleteYou're right, S64, DC did more than superheroes, but superheroes were the predominant mags at the time, and Barry was just comparing the superheroes of the two companies. Incidentally, In the DC books reprinting the Challengers stories, Jack is credited as having created them on his own, without Joe Simon. On the most recent volume, only his name appears on the cover and spine.
ReplyDeleteMaybe you are right over the Challengers creation, though my point was that the Challengers was created outside of DC, and brought to DC. At least that is my understanding...
ReplyDeleteWere superheroes pre-eminent at DC? Given titles like Secret Six, BatLash, All-Star western/Jonah Hex, Angel and the Ape, the Unknown Soldier, Plop, Prez, Brother Power the Geek and the re-inventing of the 'mystery' titles under Orlando and even the de-powering of Wonder Woman for me is evidence of a different mindset. In '72 with the demise of Aquaman, GL and the Fourth World points to a publishing house that was, if anything, trying to get out of Super-heroes. The LSH and GL became secondary features, albeit temporarily. Following the 62 page debacle what super-hero titles was DC publishing? The Superman titles, the Batman titles, JLA, Wonder Woman, the Flash and...Mister Miracle (which didn't last too long). But hey, I/m not arguing against Barry here, just trying to add another dimension to a very interesting point! Even outside of the periods Barry wrote about, Marvel was always coming up with new super-hero characters and titles.
The book gives the impression that Jack created Challengers while working (freelancing) for DC, S64, but it's not exactly clear, so it's an idea that Kirby might have been thinking of for a while. And I didn't mean to suggest that superheroes were 'predominant' at DC, but they were the biggest sellers (at one time) as a genre throughout the industry. (With the possible exception of the Romance mags.) And superheroes seem to yet rule the roost today, given all the big screen blockbusters we're seeing. As far as I know, nobody's yet made a movie based on Millie the Model or Angel and the Ape. Your interesting comments are always appreciated around here, no worries.
ReplyDeleteHi Kid, this comes from Harry Mendryk's old blog, found at
ReplyDeletehttps://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/simonandkirby/archives/106
Like so much of comic history, the details of the birth of the Challengers of the Unknown are not clear. Joe Simon has said that he and Kirby jointly created the Challengers. I have read the original introduction to the Challengers reprint volume written by Mark Evanier were he states that Kirby told him the same thing. Incidentally that statement on the creation of the Challengers is almost certainly the reason that Mark’s introduction was rejected by DC and replaced when the volume was printed. In a legal deposition, Jack Schiff stated that the Challengers was pitched to DC by both Joe and Jack. If that is true, could some of the early Challengers stories actually be Simon and Kirby productions? Some have even suggested that they were originally meant for Mainline Comics, had their company survived long enough.
So there is some possibilty that Simon was involved.
Agreed superheroes are the pre-eminent form of comics ( as opposed to comic strip)s over the past 60 years, although in the 40s and 50s it was, I think, the funny animals of Dell were the biggest sellers, then followed by Romance. I write this though without any research!!!!!
That's interesting, though Joe Simon also claimed to have created Captain America himself, with no input from Jack until they started on the first issue. Kirby fans, of course, dispute this. It's interesting from another point of view, in that Jack almost never acknowledged any of Joe's contributions when discussing his own career in articles or feature pages in the '60s and '70s. When he did, he tended to attribute the business side of things to Joe while claiming the creative side for himself. (There will probably be occasional exceptions to this.)
ReplyDeleteMark Evanier is, I'm sure, an honest man, but I sometimes think he was too close to Kirby to be entirely objective. For instance, there's an unused cover for the Replicus story in an issue of Thor that is quite clearly the work of Jack and Vince Colletta. (Jack even autographed it, though that isn't necessarily conclusive.) The Replicus figure is slightly awkward, but similar to other awkward poses by Jack - yet Evanier casts doubt on its authenticity, being slightly overprotective of Jack's reputation and not wanting to believe Jack could've produced anything so clumsy. So perhaps Jack told him he came up with the idea for Challengers (on his own) while still working with Simon, and Mark Evanier has slightly misremembered exactly what Jack said?
Jack Schiff clearly had a beef with Kirby (and vice versa) so can his testimony be regarded as reliable? Perhaps, perhaps not. If reliable, why would DC go out of their way to suppress Evanier's introduction and accord Jack sole credit? As you say, it's not entirely clear. Sometimes Jack was generous in his praise for Stan Lee and the way they worked together, other times he claimed sole credit for everything they did, and that Stan contributed nothing. Which version are we to believe? He seemed to do the same thing with Joe Simon too.
Again, as you say though, it isn't clear, and there is a possibility that Simon could've been involved, though none of the credits, although they list other writers, mention Joe Simon.
Meant to say - personally, I'm unconvinced by the alleged similarities (which are superficial) between the Challengers and the Fantastic Four, but if we accept the claim that the FF were based on the Challs (which I believe Jack later claimed), then he can't claim sole credit for the creation of the FF (as he later did) if Joe Simon was involved in the Chall's creation. Not unless, as I previously said, Jack came up with the Challs on his own while still working with Joe, but Joe helped him pitch it to DC. Complicated, isn't it?
ReplyDeleteIt is complicated but stiill shows tha DC was not great with inhouse creations. Meaning an editor did not come up,with an idea. And thanks Dave S. I am also in Silver Surfer 14, and Spider-man 100
ReplyDeleteAlthough Carmine Infantino claims to have come up with the ideas for a 'Planet of the Apes' style mag (Kamandi), and I think he also claimed that he suggested the 'idea' (not necessarily the details) of the Demon. I'd say you're right though, Barry, in your overall point. (I've got the original issue of SS #14, so I'm stealing a bit of your fame.)
ReplyDeleteI would love to see this Replicus drawing that you are talking about, Kid. Do you have a link?
ReplyDeleteYou can see it at Kirby 'Kock-ups' Part Eleven - Rejected Cover for Thor #141 - right here on this blog. Just type Replicus into the blog search box.
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