tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post2111364211896554179..comments2024-03-27T12:09:07.950+00:00Comments on CRIVENS! COMICS & STUFF!: THE TRUE STORY OF BATMAN & ROBIN - (OR: DO YOU STILL BELIEVE IN FAIRY TALES?)Unknownnoreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-26617363423953990882014-12-23T08:57:49.273+00:002014-12-23T08:57:49.273+00:00Oh dear! (Found it!) Quite nauseating, isn't i...Oh dear! (Found it!) Quite nauseating, isn't it?Kidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07224781868125924337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-8965149433921289692014-12-23T08:31:58.540+00:002014-12-23T08:31:58.540+00:00I think the final say on this can be found on Bob ...I think the final say on this can be found on Bob Kane's tombstone. If you haven't read it, please do a google search and check it out. It is a story of it's own.Captain Bloghttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17408347719003726024noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-53147320187366436602014-12-22T13:20:08.424+00:002014-12-22T13:20:08.424+00:00Some former Dandy contributors would've been w...Some former Dandy contributors would've been wise to adopt that approach to discussions about their work, DSE. (Oh, I just couldn't help myself.) Kidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07224781868125924337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-50919338356667751172014-12-22T13:10:31.220+00:002014-12-22T13:10:31.220+00:00I'm not a Kerouac fan either, I tried, On The ...I'm not a Kerouac fan either, I tried, On The Road, found it a bit parochial, I think it's probably difficult to appreciate unless you're a yank. As for his poetry, mmm, yeah well, nuff said, to borrow from Stan Lee. Although if I were to offer an insight, I'd say he'd encountered Randell Jarrell and maybe some been influenced by Japanese works but his emulation of them is solely stylistic, lacking any meaning. That's the way it seems to me but I don't make any claims about my insight, I'm just another reader. The man himself though, seemed pretty much undisturbed by the idle musings of those discussing his work, I thought that was kinda cool.DeadSpiderEyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07687178085803686186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-28667325016671088272014-12-22T04:58:07.925+00:002014-12-22T04:58:07.925+00:00I suspect that Kane was a simple soul who felt obl...I suspect that Kane was a simple soul who felt obliged to play the part that fate had handed him, DSE, and was surprised, even overwhelmed, by his own achievement of having actually come up with such a comicbook icon as Batman. That kind of success tends to swell people's egos, because their accomplishment is beyond what they thought they had the ability to attain.<br /><br />Gotta confess, I was never impressed by Kerouac's poetry, although I'm not familiar with the interview you speak of, but I hear what you're saying. However, there are plenty examples of comic creators being seemingly quite happy about other creators' successes (at least the ones they're friendly with), but Kane's unpopularity with other artists and writers appears to have sprung from a sense of him not been deserving of it, as others had done the work on his behalf.<br /><br />I think you make a good point which probably applies in a few cases, but I'm not persuaded that it's fully applicable in Kane's situation. Know what, 'though? I think I'd like it to be.Kidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07224781868125924337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-3252329856443954772014-12-22T04:11:52.812+00:002014-12-22T04:11:52.812+00:00I think the balance of evidence, such as it is, su...I think the balance of evidence, such as it is, supports your view of Kane. It's just, some of the conclusions I've witnessed others expressing about him seem to push it a bit far. He seems to cut a slightly effete figure, somewhat out of touch: as you say, 'play acting' but I'm not sure he's the only culprit. I've seen a few notables guilty of similar behaviour, you know, encouraging a bit of the mythology that surrounds them, it's just that they do it a little better. I don't blame 'em for doing it, if you don't big yourself up, no one's gonna do it for you and reputation is essential for creatives. When I seem 'em singling Kane out for the: the emperor is naked treatment, it seems slightly disingenuous to me.<br /><br />Another point I'd make is that the opposite case can also be true, that is: when a fellow creative refuses to play the game of mutual adoration. I know it's outside the comics world but the example I would cite is an interview William F. Buckley conducted with Jack Kerouac. Kerouac was a little worse for wear and he really didn't have any time for the pseudy nonsense that Buckley and the other guests were spouting. The consequence was, that Buckley got a bit shirty, he and his other guests indulged in a bit of supercilious gibing at poor old Kerouac. So it seem that you can't win, if you come clean and say: 'look it's just a comic I drew, I don't know what all the fuss is about, your auntie could do it just as well' people are gonna get upset because your disturbing the mythology. Mr. DC will probably bawl you out over his desk over the drop in sales. If you go the Bob Kane route: 'Every thing I do is fantastic, that's why you're so lucky you can buy my comics so cheaply' and you're succesful at it, which he was, you get this resentment from fellow professionals.DeadSpiderEyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07687178085803686186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-76440622058361318092014-12-22T00:41:39.021+00:002014-12-22T00:41:39.021+00:00I think there's a fair element of truth in wha...I think there's a fair element of truth in what you say about a 'head of steam' getting behind public perceptions of an individual, but that has a limited application in this instance, I'd say. What's remarkable is that, with Kane, nobody seems to be standing up and saying "No, he wasn't like that!" There just doesn't seem to be anyone defending him, which is usually the situation when someone thinks that another person is being unfairly maligned. There are plenty accounts of how great it was to meet other comicbook creators, but it would appear that none exist in Kane's case.<br /><br />I can only go by what I've read in interviews and in his autobiography, but he doesn't exactly strike me as being particularly 'smart'. It was his father (I believe) who negotiated his deal with DC - Kane himself comes across as rather an obtuse, self-obsessed individual, play-acting the part of artist and social-sophisticate rather than actually being so.<br /><br />And none of the accounts of people's disappointment at meeting him seem to stem from jealousy of what a great artist he was, or how successful he was - they're all concerned with how badly he treated his assistants and hogged all the credit for Batman, even in the face of clear evidence to the contrary. Kidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07224781868125924337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-27138730064058874262014-12-21T23:33:21.660+00:002014-12-21T23:33:21.660+00:00Here's a link to a truncated account of the st...Here's a link to a truncated account of the story: http://www.comicbookresources.com/?page=article&id=54616 there's actually a video of Stranko recounting the tale too, which goes into a bit more detail: www.youtube.com/watch?v=fadzZwx85e0<br /><br />I dare say that there's likely to be truth in some of the stories about him, I wouldn't exclude Bill Schelly's recollections from that possibility. Fans can be a bit of burden, if you're not interesting in saying what they wanna hear. The other point I'd make, without making judgements on the stories concerned, is that when head of steam gets behind a certain view of an individual, it's the momentum that produces, that becomes important and not the facts of the incidents themselves when others make judgements on an individual.<br /><br />I'd think I'll stand by the presumption of professional jealously for the moment, I think it's important to recognise what happens to the talent when they don't look after their own interests. Kane didn't suffer some of those privations cos he was a bit smarter than most, so are we supposed to despise him because he wasn't a pauper? You gotta make the most of the cash while it's coming in, cos tomorrow's just around the corner and that -great guy- who was so popular because he didn't take a cut when he could've, is just another out of work has been when the wind changes.DeadSpiderEyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07687178085803686186noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-4886348883986985752014-12-21T21:18:07.062+00:002014-12-21T21:18:07.062+00:00Actually, DSE, I don't recall ever reading tha...Actually, DSE, I don't recall ever reading that Steranko story. Do you know where I could find it? (Edit: I tracked it down and read it, DSE. Interesting story.) <br /><br />There does seems to be a certain resentment of Kane by other professionals, as you note, but I think it was down to him claiming credit for other people's art and not fully acknowledging Bill Finger's involvement in Batman's creation until near the end of his (Kane's) life.<br /><br />There's also a letter by Kane somewhere, in which he categorically denies using ghost artists, and claims to draw each and every page appearing in the Batman comics. Professional jealousy? I think the fact that his father negotiated such a sweet deal on his behalf with National/DC for close to 30 years probably did ruffle a few professional feathers, but it's understandable when Kane was benefiting handsomely for so long without actually contributing much, if anything, for a large part of that time. Understandable but ironic, as that was the situation they seemingly craved (and sometimes campaigned for) for themselves.<br /><br />But - professional side of things apart - what's your take on the fan's reaction to him, as testified to in Bill Schelly's account?Kidhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07224781868125924337noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-3740495193314269367.post-40416405962761844522014-12-21T19:36:51.694+00:002014-12-21T19:36:51.694+00:00I believe it all, right down to the animated maque...I believe it all, right down to the animated maquettes offering their gratitude. I do recall a story from Jim Steranko, I'm sure you've read it, Steranko relates how he took offence at Kane's demeanour towards him at a Comic Con. Kane seems to have pulled a few people's patience plug out, for reasons I can't quite discern. Steranko seems to have got the ump because he was a bit too familiar and he didn't like the cravat that Kane was wearing. While that does seem: a little eccentric, it's not really something I could get worked up about. The tale about trying to swindle a fan out of his valuable comics and then complaining about the ingratitude of that fan, when he doesn't fall for it, does seem to belie a certain lack of self awareness. There's a suspicion of a certain degree of apocrypha though and it's tame compared to the reality of the unfettered and freely dispensed bitching we've had from some notables over the last few years. I don't like it when it's the talent throwing mud at each other, it's unedifying, smacks of professional jealousy and it's something they should be leave to those in the suits.<br />DeadSpiderEyehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07687178085803686186noreply@blogger.com